I've been wanting to talk about gay marriage for a while now, for it is something I have struggled with. The reason it's been so difficult for me to take a firm stand on the issue is because I don't believe that either side is being honest in their arguments. Let me explain.
First, you have the homosexual lobby in this country. They have proclaimed marriage to be a right of every human being regardless of sexual orientation. This, they believe, will guarantee them the rights of all married couples. Some local courts agree with them.
There are several problems with this argument. First, proclaiming something a right doesn't make it one. Churches have been able to perform any kind of marriage for a long time. The difference is that the state only recognizes marriages between one man and one woman where both parties are of sound mind and body and have reached the age of consent. Thus, a couple can have a ceremony in a church that is not recognized as being legitimate for purposes of child custody, hospital visitation, insurance coverage (depending on the company), etc.
If gay couples wanted to have their marriages recognized only for the reasons listed above, I don't know that I would have much of a problem with it. However, those reasons are a smokescreen for the larger issue: accpetance through jucidicial ruling. The idea, as I see it, is to gain respect and acceptance by forcing every facet of society to accept homosexual couples. But, you may ask, if this is the reasoning, why not just come out with it? Simple: our society, for good or ill, is not ready to accept mainstream homosexuality. Try back in a generation and you may have a different outlook, but we're not there yet. It is this subterfuge that bothers me.
Then we have the other side. This group is mainly Christian conservatives who view marriage as a basic construct of an organized and sustained society. It is, in essence, a building block; without a family, there can be no nation. The reasoning goes that homosexual marriage does not contribute to that construct since it does not produce children. I don't have a problem with this line of reasoning, although I have to wonder what the thought is about heterosexual couples who can't or won't have children.
What I do have a problem with is the real reason why so many of these people have a problem with gay marriage: they just don't like gay people. I find this to be most true among men, and I can't quite understand it. I don't know if they're a little to insecure about their manhood (quite common in our society; look at the rise of the dumbass tough guy and tell me I'm wrong) or they just spend too much time thinking about two guys having sex. Whatever the reason, why don't they just come out and say that they want gays to stay in the closet? At least it would be honest.
Will gay marriage come to pass? Yes, eventually. Will it result in the death of marriage? No; that's happening right now with the huge number of divorces, illegitimate children and straight couples who just decide to shack up instead of getting married. In the final analysis, I guess I believe that there are much bigger harbingers of the end of Western civilization that letting to men or two women get hitched. That's not to say I support the idea, just that I'm not going to spend any more time thinking about it.
I will remain sadly in the minority then. O' the good old days.
Posted by: Erik at May 27, 2004 02:42 PMWhile I agree that our society is one of prejudice as a whole and at this point in time it is directed at the homosexual community, I don't necessarily agree with your idea of acceptance through judicial ruling. History shows that a judicial ruling does not automatically lead to acceptance. One of the last judicial ruling to legalize interracial marriage in a state that was still holding out took place in 1973, yet today there is still widespread prejudice against such couples. I doubt that it would be any different in regards to homosexuals. I truely believe that their intent is to be able to provide their families with some of the same basic provisions that the rest of us take for granted everyday. It's sort of ironic that those very groups that seek to promote and preserve the institute of marriage are turning away folks that are begging for the opportunity. I agree that gay marriage will happen eventually, but acceptance in a society that accepts little they consider to be outside the norn is not likely for many decades to come. What a shame we waste so much precious time avoid the inevitable because we're unable to see past our own fears.
Posted by: Denise at May 27, 2004 09:13 PMWell, death is inevitable. I guess we should all live short lives and stop wasting so much precious time to avoid it.
Posted by: Shawn at May 27, 2004 11:55 PMI'm going to go play in traffic right now ;-)
Posted by: Matt at May 28, 2004 07:05 AMWe can justify anything but it is with flawed logic. Absolutes anyone?
Posted by: Erik at May 28, 2004 06:27 PMYes, death too is inevitable, and many people waste too much time worrying about it and trying to avoid it instead of enjoying life. If we spent enough time taking care of our own business we wouldn't have time to be worrying about other peoples.
Posted by: Denise at May 28, 2004 08:51 PMLive and let live. Really? Tell the rest of the world that.
Posted by: at May 28, 2004 09:03 PMI think that anyone who wants to devote anytime at all to thinking about this issue should first ask themselves this question, "do I believe that homosexuals are born that way or do they make some kind of choice as to their sexual proclivity". I believe that they are with some exceptions born that way. As such, how can we as a society deny them the same basic human rights as everyone else. If you believe that homosexuals are born the way they are and should not be allowed to have the same marital rights as heteros' then do you also believe that blacks should also have to use seperate water fountains, restrooms, swimming pools, schools etc. as white people? These issues regarding black and white intergration were addressed with "judical rulings" quite successfully. There is of course still racial bigotry in our country but, by rule of law we are not allowed to discriminate against blacks like in the old days of Jim Crow. Marriage in this country is not a distinctly religious or church union. People are married by Judges, ship captains and Elvis impersonators. It's possible to be married on a nude beach and while sky diving and all of these, done ecumenically or athiestically, with the proper legal documentation, will grant the couple full legal married rights. I'm so sick and tired of hearing these Christian Neo-cons scream down their nose that homosexuals are going to ruin marriage and the family in our country. In the early 20th century when we began in this country to stop treating women like property and granted them the same rights and opportunitys as men, thats when marriage in this country began to change into something that truly reflected the modern human spirit and condition. If your view of marriage is strictly a biblical one then you have to blame its demise (the christian neo-cons term, not mine) on the rights of women to vote, to have jobs, to contraception and to have lives separate and independent from a man and to get a no fault divorce. All of these things were done by heteros' not the gay community.
Posted by: Jerry at May 29, 2004 10:48 AMWatch your mouth when you talk about me. Christianity and the Bible did not create any of the problems in this society. It is those who rebel and choose immorality that do so. The definition of a Christian is a follower of Christ. So if you blame Him than I guess you blame all true believers. Decay has increased to the point where most just accept it as the way it is. At least I won't give in to political correctness and the changing winds. If that's what the majority want then let them choke on it.
Posted by: Erik at May 29, 2004 11:05 AMOk, Jerry. Gays are not a race nor a sex. To compare them as such doesn't really work. I've never seen a gay's only water fountain or restroom. If they want to be married let them go to Canada. They could use the population boost and that country is plenty gay. With all of the french influence in Quebec it would be perfect for gay men. Lesbians can live in Toronto and fit right in with their boots and flannel shirts. I think I may be on to something here.
Posted by: Shawn at May 29, 2004 01:22 PM I'm sorry Erik, did I miss something? I thought as followers of Christ we were to exhibit the same qualities of love, tolerance and acceptance that He exemplifies, and not simply hold our Christianity up as a shield to protect us from what we don't understand.
By the way Shawn, boots and flannel shirts? Do you actually know any lesbians?
No Denise, I have never met you.
Posted by: Shawn at May 30, 2004 12:16 PMHey, let's all play nice.
Posted by: Matt at May 30, 2004 04:13 PMSorry, but the shot was there and I took it.
Posted by: Shawn at May 30, 2004 04:19 PMDon't be sorry Denise just educate yourself when it comes to Biblical facts. Tolerance is not accepting immoral life style. To be very clear though, I hate only the sin and not the sinner. Everyone deserves and has God's mercy. If only the world would see that we wouldn't have to justify our rebelious life styles. I use only one arbiter for my beliefs, the word of God.
Posted by: Erik at May 30, 2004 05:29 PMGee Matt, you really should place an age requirement on your site, so you don't end up with middle-schoolers like Shawn taking "shots" instead of posting intelligent ideas.
Posted by: Denise at May 30, 2004 07:45 PMWow, I didn't realize anything that you had posted was considered an idea. Emotional people shouldn't assume the level of intelligence in others.
Posted by: Shawn at May 31, 2004 11:01 AMLet's get some things straight first. I am a Christian, and I believe in the teachings of the Bible, but I strongly oppose the current state of organized religion.
Have I met homosexual people? Yes, I have. I find them to be much like me: human, living, breathing, working citizens. All have traits; some I agree with, some I don't. But I can still manage to get along with them, just as I do with everyone else.
The thing is. who cares? I mean, shit man, aren't there other things in this world that are more important? I do not believe in homosexuality as an acceptable form of behavior. FOR ME. What other people do is none of my damn business, unless it is directly affecting my life. I hear more bitching about this than I do smoking in public, and we KNOW that's killing people. If homosexuals want to get married, fine. Who am I to judge? I can do what I want (within reason) so can everyone else.
I think the idea of two men in the same bed as disgusting. That's why I dont participate. (Two women doesnt bother me too much though; hey let's be honest, right?) But if a couple deems it appropriate for them, why should we complain?
If the church wants to gripe, they need to get their act together first. Jesus even said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." And the group to which he spoke stood there and did nothing. The modern church, of any denomination, has so many faults, that one cannot expect to even consider them the work of a god, much less THE God. We have women in the pulpit, homosexual priests (never saw that coming, yeah right...) and the church is being used by our prison system to release hardened criminals as ordained ministers.
Look at it from a statistical standpoint. There are about 7 billion people on the planet at this very moment. That is about half of all people who have existed, by our best guesstimates. Can you honestly tell me that things like hair and eye color will be influenced by genes, bone structure, disease, intelligence, everything except sexual orientation? Come on.
Sooner or later the numbers are gonna be up. It was gonna happen. It took till what, before the Bible was even written before homosexuality was an issue?
I'm not gonna take any cheap shots here. But the fact is, I am not responsible for what other people do to and with themselves. I have enough to worry about on my own. Just because I don't agree, doesnt mean I can discredit the decisions of others.
I have soooo much more to say about this. Matt, make a chatroom.
On to the abortion topic, anyone?
Posted by: Troy at June 2, 2004 03:57 PMNo judgement? How do we decide what is right or what is wrong? Judgement is fundamental in the Christian faith. This is so, so misunderstood yet cited by so many as the basis of Christianity. Get it straight or find another faith to follow. We are not to judge one's soul or where they will spend eternity. That whore was going to be stoned to death. Jesus said to her "go and sin no more". They alwasy forget that part. Convienent.
In regards to homos, it is wrong. As a Christian I judge only that action based on scripture. I pray for their souls. As the word says "It is not God's will that any man parish but have everlasting life." Rules are required for that. Oh...and I did not make them. Take it up with the Boss!
Posted by: Erik at June 3, 2004 12:24 AMDude, you really need to reconsider you stance. If I judeged you to be an idiot because you are narrow minded, where would that put me? No better than you! And I'm not even making that statement.
You may be a Christian now, but you are still a sinner my friend. You always will be, and nothing you can do will change it. So homosexuality is a sin by Biblical standards. I dont like it either, but I can't judge something I can't understand, and if these people aren't choosing to be gay, I find no fault in them. Either way, you and I both have too much sh!t on our doorsteps to worry this much about everyone else. After all, your job is to plant the seed. That's all. If you try to force someone, you'll turn them off. quick.
Its also obvious to me that you have little if any experience with the gay community.
Posted by: Troy at June 3, 2004 04:31 PMDude? Your shallow insight disappoints me. Please consider another faith because Christianity doesn't suit you. According to the Bible, are homos welcome into the kingdom of heaven?
Please, understand that I did not write the good book but I do believe all of it. I accept all manner of hate as part of following Christ.
Posted by: Erik at June 3, 2004 10:17 PMIf I have "shallow insight" then you need to read your Bible some more, pal.
You actually think that because a person is gay, that keeps them from the kingdom? Ok, now I am saying you're an idiot. What keeps people from the kingdom is a lack of belief in Christ, and that he died for the sins of man.
Being a sinner does NOT keep you out. If that was the case, why should we even try?
If you had a child, and that child turned his back on you, and more or less disassociated himself from you over the course of their entire life, for whatever reason, would you still love that child? Better yet, would you still offer reconciliation?
But as Christians, we are taught that our "reconciliation" has to take place before we die. Is that omnipotence? It's not enough for people to admit they are wrong?
You are also completely overlooking the fact that some homosexuals are not choosing to be this way. It is inherently (sp?) ingrained in their being, and no chemical or therapy will change it. So god has something out for those of his people that have a trait they had nothing to do with? I'm white, am I exluded too??? What about Jews?
The whole idea of Christianity is love and forgiveness. Not judgement and hatred. If you love God so much, you should ask him to help you understand things you dont understand. ...Accept the things you CANNOT change...
Peace, man.
Troy
Posted by: Troy at June 4, 2004 05:57 PMIdiot?
I don't condemn anyone and I never made any insulting remarks, which I can't say the same for you.
Where is your proof that homosexuals are born? A trait that inherently causes you to sin is not from God. It is the sin that is at the very root inhibitinhg procreation. Not all sins are the same. Yes, they are all sin but they have different effects on life. We are not animals and cannot be compared to their sexual biology. Homosexuality is a corruption of the spirit which directly opposes God's plan of male/female unity. These traits are produced through strong influences in one's life. Is gay a choice? I would say partly because we all reach an age of accountability in which we cab choose to correct our path. You write it off as some kind a birth defect. There are many sociological causes of homosexuality. None of them are an excuse to do it. Same sex marrige is justification of sin. You support that? Do as you wish.
I end this pety debate with scripture. So, once again please, take it up with God.
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexuals offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Peace be with you as well.
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