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Matt,
This type of topic is well discussed in person, possibly over a meal. I can explain this whole mess to you... It's really alot easier than we make it out to be...

Troy

Sounds like a plan ;-)

Not being blasphemous here, but unless Troy, represents the 2nd coming, I doubt if he, or anyone on this planet can "explain" this "whole mess". (Specifically to Troy - I don't mean to knock you, your beliefs, or good intentions, but people have been pondering the meaning of life and more specifically the reason for "suffering" since time immemorial).

Some believe that the whole reason for our existence is to ponder these questions. Others believe that this is just some chance happening in the cosmos. That the electrons zipping around in this mass of cellular tissue we call a brain makes us think of a God, and our purpose in the universe. The difference between the two philosophies is in essence that wonderful word that Matt brought up - Faith.

My viewpoints on this are myriad, and I too as everyone else has asked the question "Why is there suffering in this world ?" and the "Why do bad things happen to good people ?" question.

One of the pitfalls we fall into as people of faith is that we view God through human emotions. For example, when we speak of God being a "Loving God", it is hard for me to imagine that God loves Pedophiles or someone like a Hitler. As a human being, I believe I am incapable loving a person that evil. But they tell us that God loves everyone, so this love of his must be beyond the "Phile and Agape" we are used to. The other pitfall we encounter is the “grander purpose” one. As human beings we are inherently biased towards a cause and effect view of the universe we live in. Even the chaos theory of mathematics tries to find the cause and effect relationship between two seemingly random events - the butterfly flapping its wings in Africa leading to a hurricane in the east coast. Thus we often get frustrated, as to why this so called Grand Purpose we term as God’s will, has to include lil’ kids dying in our arms. But if we eliminate the “things happen for a reason” theory, then all we are left with is chance. And that flies in the face of “Faith”. Or does it ?

When I as a person of science tried to explain “God”, I had a hard time because science requires proof. God requires Faith. But there are some similarities that I could in my feeble mind latch on to which give me some insights. For example, what if one thought of God not as a supreme being but as a supreme “law” of the universe. We have many laws in the realm of physics. Newton's laws were all we had till they got superseded by the laws of Thermodnamics, which too fail (some say) when we look at the General Theory of relativity. Steven Hawkings is now looking for a Grand Unified Theory that supercedes the theory of relativity. These laws are all subsets of each other. Thus, someone with only Newton’s laws to go by, could never understand a “Black Hole”. But to S. Chandrasekhar, even if he was unaware of Einstein’s theory at the time, he had the understanding of what happens when a star collapses, and thus a black hole was an inevitable conclusion. One way to look at Faith is that at the present time we are incapable of “understanding” the universal law that governs our universe. But we know of it's existence by the effects we observe. So we just accept it. We make attempts to get close to our understanding of the universal law through two avenues - Religion and Science. As we gain more insight and truly “grow” as human beings, we may begin to get closer to this universal “law” and thus begin to understand God better.

The 2nd law of thermodynamics is pretty much dispassionate about the people that die in car crashes. But if we understand the law, it presents a way to explain what happened, and that the reason the person died was because of the mechanics of energy transfer, that are governed by that same law. The limitations of the law are why it had to be your husband, wife or daughter that died in that wreck, while the drunk driver that hit them lived. That explanation requires a higher law which we don't yet understand.

Now leaving science behind. Matt asked as to why I have “Faith”. And as to whether we are being “punished” for some original sins. If I believe the New Testament, then I have to believe that I am no longer being punished since my sins from time immemorial to time eternal have already been paid for by the Blood of Christ. As long as I believe. That is, as long as I have "Faith". So then, why do we suffer ? I can only say that I suffer for the same reason Jesus did. That it is part of being human. That the reason a honey bee has to die if it stings someone while a scorpion lives on, is because THAT is what being a bee is all about. That is the way God designed bees, and this is the way he designed humans. My personal thoughts are that I do not see all this suffering as working towards some “Grander Plan”. Rather that God's so called purpose exists irrespective of our suffering. As a human, I have to accept that there will be suffering. I can increase or decrease to some extent this suffering by my actions, but there is a limit to that influence. As a human being, I have a choice to reject or accept God based on the suffering I see. I believe when I cry out “Eli, Eli la’ ma sa bach tha ni”, it is because of my limitations as a human being to understand the universal law, not any fault of mine, nor any actual malicious intent of God.

I will be interested to read what others have to say. This to me is a lot more interesting to me than silly politics.

:-)

To all:

The opportunity to discuss the philisophical point/counterpoints made here are very interesting to me. Their discussion will enlighten us all, and possibly define or explain that which we do not, and in some cases, cannot, understand.

Hash, I make no claim to be the 2nd, nor do I claim that I am correct all the time. All I am offering is my view based on what I have been taught, my belief or disbelief in those teachings, and the greatest lesson of them all: experience. I am sad to say that I disagree with your explanation of religion or religious viewpoints by way of scientific evidence or proof. As I stated before, there are some things that are not meant to be understood, and no matter what the laws that govern thermodynamics might say, they will never explain or define that which is not of this universe. To make a long story short, we simply are not capable of understanding God's will.

Keep in mind that I am not stating it was God's will that a tradgedy like this accident or even the Snelgrove incident took place. Unfortunately, not all events are the will of God. This is known to man as "choice."

On the point of our reason for existence: We are existing to experience the greatest of all emotions, love. Suffering is not, IMHO, the will of God. Love is, however, experienced as a result of suffering, in this case, losing a loved member of a family. Suffering was in fact a part of Christ's human existence. However, it was meant only as a means to remove that suffering from us, in the form of eternity in hell, as defined by the Holy Bible.

About Faith: Faith is simply the belief that God is on control, even when we do not understand (a situation or cirumstance) That's it. It's really that simple. There is no more to it.

The problem with people is that we make things so much harder than they have to be. If you look at our society, (just American Society) we have maligned every aspect of righteousness and dignity that we can. Look at the way of the world. Is it headed in a positive direction? Are we doing right be our fellow man? Have we applied the laws of our omnipotent God to ourselves?

For man, this trend will continue as a result of defiance and disobedience towards your God. You can call him whatever you like, but the fact remains; there is something out there; and he's bigger than I am. Until people begin to understand that there is so much more to life than the existence that we make ourselves endure, we will continue this trend. Unfortunately, I believe that it may take a MAJOR catastrophe to invoke true change. Whether we survive that remains to be seen.

Also, I like this discussion more than politics.

Let's get together and discuss!

Hmmm...

I may have not made a clear distinction on the laws of science, that I wrote about, and God's will. I wasn't saying that science will someday lead us to the answer. But on the other hand, if God gave us the ability to pursue science, then I do believe that it has a part in getting to understand him better. So I can't discount it either.

But I wonder about the point you brought up. About "not being capable of understanding God's will". Do you believe that is by design ? Or is that just a human failing that one can overcome ?

To me, if we are NEVER meant to understand God's will, that seems contrary to what we read in the Bible, or for that matter other religious texts. I mean the whole reason Jesus was here was so he could talk to us "Man to Man" and make us understand. Time and again we see in the new testament, Jesus try to explain what God wants of us. To get beyond human thoughts and emotions. If all God required was "blind faith" then we wouldn't have a God that advocates Love. All we would need is a God that advocates Fear. But fear is a human emotion that God advocates us to discard. Thus we had John 3:16, and not the proverbial "bolt of lightning" to scare us into believing.

To give a simplistic analogy, a parent can tell a child not to do something just "because I said so". But eventually the child will get past the fear. But when a child truly understands the "why" the parent will never have to tell the child again.

So IMHO we must be capable of understanding God's will. Not because of some sort of vanity on the part of humans, but because I feel God WANTS us to. Faith as you defined it "the belief that God is in control, even when we do not understand" is just the first step in this journey.

Some people have trouble with this because they equate "understanding" God or the will or God, to being like God. Nothing could be further from the truth.

To me, if God didn't want us to know his will, he wouldn't try so hard !

:-)

You both make some good points. I have never stopped to consider "God as Universal Force", although there is logic in that. But if there is truth in that, why is there worship? If we see God as a loving father (a Western patriarchal concept, but the one from my tradition), why would He require worship from his children?

Of course, it could be that we worship this "force" much like cavemen worshipped the moon or big rocks. If so, I guess we have a long way to go.

Interesting thought.

So does God really require us to "Worship" him ? The first commandment is only that we shall have no other "Gods" before him. Of course when Jesus was asked what the greatest commandment was he replied with .. "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind"

You may be right. We may still be "Worshiping" God out of fear, like we did in times past for forces we didn't comprehend. Instead if we were more focussed on Loving God and loving our neighbor as ourself - which according to Jesus are the two commandments upon which "hang all the law and all the prophets", we would be practicing true "worship" ?

Maybe God never meant for us to worship him in the way we do ?

I am not up on my Bible, so I wonder if someone will point out verses with direct references to a requirement for worship ?

I have a question about a Native American Indian. This Indian lived a good life, hunted for his family and tribe, defended the tribe when needed and by all standards was a good person. One day while hunting he is attacked and killed by a bear. This Indian had never accepted Jesus Christ as his savior. Is he now burning in Hell?

All we need now is a sunday dinner with a priest, a lesbian, and some New York Italians.

Be nice, Shawn. At least the lesbian had good taste (she thought Patty was hottt);-)

My God, where is this going?

Back to intelligent thought...

Hash,
We are meant to understand God's Law. His desire for us is to simply enjoy the life and the Earth, as Adam and Eve in the Garden were meant to at the inception of Creation. Things were simple: Don't eat of the fruit from the tree of knowledge. How would things be today had Adam not partaken of that fruit?

Although the NT is filled with great scripture, the OT is equally as important. The basis for existence and creation are outlined there. Once again, I say, things are not nearly as complicated as we make them out to be. We try to explain and distort the facts in an attempt to "understand" what cannot be understood.

Socrates was most noted for saying that which has merited him often as one of the most intelligent who ever lived: "I know nothing." It could be said that this is a reference to the belief that there is so much more out there in comparison to what we can know. It could also be surmised that he was admitting that the mortals ability to understand was severly limited by the standard God.

Worship is a way for people of God to grow and understand together. Strength in numbers? When you have other people with you that can understand you, can discuss with you the philosophy of religion, everyone involved benefits. the purpose of worship is to strengthen the multitudes, enlighten them about God and his plan, and to grow with each other.

I can hardly believe that heaven is a bunch of people singing and listening to sermons. Saying "Amen" and "Hallelujah" We just don't have the potential as humans to know or understand it.

See with physics, you have to apply the laws as the laws apply. By that I mean, what happens here on Earth doesn't necessarily apply to the laws of physics that may govern other planets, galaxies or even another universe. God is in a completely different realm, not anywhere near where we are or what we experience. Case in point, what does the Bible say about time, on Earth and in Heaven?

God is not to be feared or understood in the general sense of the word. I think his wrath is to be feared. God is to be loved, as he has loved us. By having no other Gods before Him, I believe God was telling us that of all things, our focus on his plan, and his desire for us should be of utmost importance. That no other thing be in the way of our relationship with Him.

Finally, to explain your analogy of the child's fear and understanding. You have not realized that the child has the potential to understand the why of the parents desire. Eventually, a child understands pain. Until that point, they are likely to walk in front of a moving car, or touch an object that is hot, like fire. It's not fear that the child is getting past, it's understanding; it's experience. The experience allows the child to correlate between the command of the parent and the result of disobedience. M daughter Jenna is trying to learn that now. For some reason, pain is not in her vocabulary.

I hate to soud repetitive, but we are not meant to understand God. We are meant to understand that God has a will for our lives, and that it's up to us to carry his will for us out. We make the choice.

God is trying so hard because people are so stupid. May sound harsh, but look at the way things are today, and tell me I'm wrong.

Sly,

This question has been asked many a time in this form and in others.

eg. What about people that never knew Jesus ? Or
"What about babies that die ?"

IMO, the Bible is pretty clear on those that are "innocent". In fact Jesus in Matthew Ch.18 tells us that unless we are "innocent" like the Children, we will not enter the Kingdom of heaven.

Matt 18:3 And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."

4 "Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

18:14 "In the same way your Father in heaven is NOT WILLING THAT ANY of these little ones should be lost."

As to those like the Native American you spoke off, Romans Ch.1 tells us that for those that do not know Jesus, they still can see God through his works.

Rom. Ch1:20 "For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse."

Roman Ch.20 Tells us that those who don't know the Law still have a Conscience. And they will be judged by it.

Rom.2:14 "Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,"

2:15 "since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them."

So No, I believe the Native American who lived a Good Life by his "innocence" of only being aware of God through his works, shall be saved.

I think this question gets asked because John 3:16 explicitly states "Whosoever believeth in him..." So people think the opposite must be a corollary.

Salvation is up to God. IMO, one must NEVER tell people that they will go to "Hell". That is NOT for us to judge.

Hash

What about Walking Eagle, does he get in?

;-)

I like to believe he gets in as well. Even if, he has met a missionary and doesn't believe him. Those were traumatic and chaotic times for the Indians. Thanks for the insight Hash. I have asked that question to many people, Bishops, Nuns, Christians of different denominations, Christians with no denominations, and assorted wackos. Your answer has been the most thought out of the bunch.

Sly

I was referring to Walking Eagle, who is running for president. Some of you have heard the joke.

Matt,

If you were God and created humans, would you control their lives or let them make their own choices? Original sin a choice? Well, that requires one of faith to go much deeper into the fall of satan. But more easily explained in the fact that God did not create perfection and therefore sin is present.

Miracles are not so much a form of control but of God's mercy and promise to answer our faithful prayers.

I think we would control them. We control our pets. People try to control each other all the time.

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The best revenge is living well? He who laughs last, laughs best? If a tree falls in the woods......

You are right Sly but humans are imperfect. God knows what we will do but we don't. Is it predetermination? No. Although the future is foreknown, our choice is still ours to make in the present.

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